Back to Contents Katherine Harbord: I would be really interested to know this answer also. Asylos: Moving on to child protection and access to education for children. Of course we found much information on the obstacles to the protection of stateless Palestinian's children. However, we're wondering if we might include information on the infrastructures that exist to potentially protect these children from being disproportionately affected by these types of risks, and-Katherine Harbord: Sorry, again, it’s a really interesting question. It’s something I know nothing about. Okay, no it’s good that you interrupt me before I go into detail. Asylos: Then I will move on to the issue of access to the labour market. We found information on a ban to 39 high wage liberal professions. We found information according to which amendments were made to this Lebanese labour law in 2010. But then we found other reports implying that the ban is still in place. Any information you could give on this point would be very interesting. Katherine Harbord: I spoke to a Palestinian in Lebanon towards the end of last year who told me that they do still require a work permit, it's like an authorisation, it's not something you have to physically pay for. But in practice, because of the problems of weak state structures, in practice often there is a charge attached or you can't receive it without paying a fee. No, fee is the wrong word. I was trying to think of a polite way to say bribe, but I mean bribe. Asylos: Has your contact talked about what would happen if someone is caught working without a permit? Katherine Harbord: This is something that has previously come up about a year, a year and a half ago. And my understanding is that the main consequences of not having a permit-- of course, there are potentially legal consequences, a fine. It's an offense. My understanding is that it carries kind of a statutory fine in the same way if you're caught speeding or something, you have whatever the fine is. So there are consequences. But the more important consequences, I think, are actually perhaps the unintended ones. So if somebody doesn't have a permit, they don't have the protections inscribed in labour law. They're open to exploitation, unscrupulous employers, those kind of ancillary problems rather than justifying itself. It's my understanding too that employers, if they have an illegal worker, they also are subject to a fine. So the gentleman I spoke to did say it was quite difficult to find sort of a good job without a work permit. Finding work is easy, but employers aren't generally willing to take the risk for higher-status jobs and roles. Understandably. The man that I was speaking to had involvement-- or had previously had involvement with the trade union movement, for example. So it may be that he was also more aware than the average person of the situation because of his interest in labour laws and labour relations. Asylos: On the subject of access to land, housing and shelter for stateless Palestinians, we found many sources relating to the exclusion of Palestinians from the right to own real estate. Some sources point to the fact that people who were able to access real estate before the passing of this law would manage to register their house or their through relatives who are allowed to own land. Do you have any impression of how much this is practised and how it works? Katherine Harbord: I have heard the same stories. I don't have any independent verification of this, but I have heard from people that they have registered property. It's their property, but it's registered in the name of their Lebanese business partner or an in laws because it either isn't possible to or it's perceived to be not possible, which can also be a barrier. Or there are concerns about perhaps the state confiscating a property even if it is possible to legitimately register it. So it's a bit hard to kind of untangle what is going on. But certainly, this is something I've heard repeatedly. But I'm not aware of whether there's any efforts to resolve this. Asylos: This confiscation stories, do you know of anyone for whom it did happen? Katherine Harbord: No. I don't know. When you hear one of these stories, it always happens to a friend of a friend of a friend or my cousin's husband. I wonder if perhaps it's kind of rumors you are more inclined to believe or to be more wary about things even if they aren't a statistical threat just because you have been living in a state of vulnerability. It seems likely that it could be a threat, so therefore you take evasive action. I mean, I'm not saying it never happens, but I've certainly not been able to track down and verify such a case. All it takes is one rogue police officer or local mayor or a dispute about whose goats ate whose apples or something to escalate. Words get heated, things escalate. And because you have kind of not only your own precarity but this collective memory of precarity, of course, you are fearing that your house/land might be confiscated. 17. Appendices 165